Friday, Mar 24th

Last update:07:04:23 PM GMT

You are here: Christian Doctrine Heresy and Error Welsh Outpouring? Genuine or Fake?

Welsh Outpouring? Genuine or Fake?

E-mail Print PDF

Subject: Charismatic phenomena.

Topic: The ‘Welsh Outpouring’, Victory Church, Cwmbran, South Wales, from 10th April 2013 to present.

Belief System of Church: Charismatic.

I have written much in the past about charismatic fakery and the godlessness of the movement. So, what do I make of the events called the ‘Welsh outpouring’? Before I answer that I should make a few observations...

The various and many charismatic ‘outpourings’ of previous years have obviously been of Satan – the doctrinal teachings and behaviours prove it. Now, if Satan sees the parts that put-off genuine believers, do you not think he will begin to change what occurs in charismatic meetings, so that the parts that put-off believers are transformed, putting doubt into their own discernment? This question arose when I heard of the ‘Welsh outpouring’. I began with caution rather than with outright acceptance of what was claimed, and, invariably compare what is now happening to what wickedly happened in the 1990s.

Some charismatics, too, know that their lack of biblical foundation and Christ-centred life is an automatic barrier to reformed and other genuine believers, and have tried to insert what seems genuine into their dealings. But, beware – during the height of the Toronto Blessing I warned that the next step in charismaticism would be an attempt to legitimise what they say and do with pseudo-theology; they would ‘theologise’ what they do. This is now happening and this is why I think we are hearing soothing words that sound familiar.

I also warned (in the 1990s) that the Toronto Blessing would sweep many Christians off their biblical feet, and they would be duped into the charismatic movement. I further warned that a second wave or tsunami of Satan would come to knock stronger Christians off their feet, because they were filled with pride and would not arm themselves against the onslaught, thinking they were holy. Sadly, many hid behind the walls of their churches, refusing to fight the obvious evil. It is these who will fall to the amended lies of Satan next.

On top of this I tell people that my time in psychiatry made me almost immune to tears and claimed emotional wonders, because I have witnessed the most foul of people appear to be genuine, only to return to their evil ways in time. Thus, when I look at charismatic and other incidents and teachings claiming to be of God I stand back and will not be immersed in the heat of the moment. Instead, I wait for the truth to emerge, or not. At the same time I investigate thoroughly, not waiting for time to take its course!

Some might be discouraged by this, but it is essential for me to stand back and not be involved emotionally, so that I can discern and check what I see and hear. Could I be wrong? Of course... but, frankly, I do not think so. As I describe this ‘outpouring’, let the Holy Spirit guide you, not me. I will not visit Victory church – why should I when the evidences are there in print? And when I already know the dangers of visiting a charismatic church in ‘full flow’? Did not Paul write epistles of warnings to churches he was not visiting? Truth stands, whether we visit a church or not.

Dark Days

We are in dark days, getting darker, when even the churches will lead the way on behalf of Satan, who will use everything in his power to deceive. If this means inserting a bit of truth into charismaticism, then he will do it. Anything to seduce!

I am not too bothered by people who occasionally act out of ignorance, or who unwittingly perform erroneous actions, or express unintentionally-unbiblical thoughts. But, when I see it happen continuously and very deliberately, I am very wary. It is with the above observations that I come to my comments about the ‘Welsh outpouring’. Such caution has served me well in the past and I do not see any need to change my approach in the future. A bad root produces bad fruit, no matter what excited folks think their ‘fruit’ is.

As the Toronto Blessing (TB) tore through hundreds and hundreds of churches, and as I stood firmly against it, I experienced a short time when I doubted my own discernment, but I had to knock this back with some force, because I realised that my responsibility was to God and His people. As Satan attempted to seduce me with ‘borderline’ biblicality within the movement, I had to remind myself of the overall impact of the ‘Blessing’ and its violent effect on believers and unbelievers. Then, truth prevailed and the deception was removed.

So, when I look at this latest UK example of charismatic ‘offering’ I do so with great caution; I have ‘heard it all before’, and pray that though the things I observe are slightly different from the original Toronto Blessing-style evils, they will not sway me into accepting it as genuine, because only the details have changed, not the general movement. It is either genuine or it is not – claims made by its pastors and adherents do not alter truth.

Is It God’s Outpouring?

Some have been led to believe it is a genuine ‘outpouring’ of the Holy Spirit. I note the word itself – ‘outpouring’ – because it is a typically-charismatic way of naming events. Yes, certain things have happened and there is an eruption of apparently God-ward fervour. This, however, can be deceptive. It is what happened in the 1990s, when the TB covered the land with horrendous, satanic evils in the guise of ‘God’. Is this ‘outpouring’ just a newer version of the TB-style evil? Or, is it genuine?

Victory church believes it is genuine (see http://www.victorychurch.co.uk/100-days-of-the-welsh-outpouring ). Is this a commendation? Sorry, no – it is an opinion by a charismatic church, and I do not trust charismatic thinking or views: I continue to categorise charismaticism as cultic, outside the true Church of God. There is more to my statement, based on the beliefs and activities of Victory church. For this, I go to another source, before looking at Victory church itself.

http://eliora.hubpages.com/ has looked at what has happened and has done some good preliminary research. What she (Eliora) discovered is fundamental to how we should view the ‘outpouring’ (I will follow the points as they are raised in her article).

Victory church, in Cwmbran, South Wales, has several pastors. They are led by Richard Taylor. An important factor is that the church belongs to ‘Churches Together’, an ecumenical grouping with connections to cults. In Wales it has the Welsh name, Cytûn. Read my TB articles and you will find my suitably caustic remarks concerning this grouping! It arose out of the British Council of Churches. Cytûn also meets ‘equally’ with Roman Catholics and mainline heretical churches, and is affiliated to the foul World Council of Churches, with its pagan friendships.

Eliora says that some independent small churches in the area refuse to join this heretical grouping, and Taylor claims they call his own church ‘separatist’. If this is true, then it is apt, because his church belonged to ecumenical heresy before it had this ‘outpouring’.

As Eliora says, separation is a biblical concept, essential for dividing genuine from false, but Taylor’s church is separating from God, not from heretics, reversing what separation is really about! And, if Taylor cannot see this, how can he know when something is genuine?

Same Old Charismatic Duplicity?

Apparently, Taylor says he receives no stipend or payment from Victory church. Sadly, like so many charismatic leaders, he speaks the ‘truth’ sparingly. Eliora, however, points out that he DOES receive an income, through Victory outreach UK. This has the same address as Victory church, so come to your own conclusions. In 2012 Taylor received £30,000 as Executive Director of this Outreach program. It seems that his wife also receives an income from it.

The venture has fixed assets of about one and a half million. Why say he has no income from the church when the church is the base for a venture of the same name, with its home in the same building, especially as many in his church are only on state benefits? It is suggested that his income exceeds this, because of his TV appearances and other activities that pay him.

Taylor disparages local churches who do not support him and he appears to have aspirations to lead a ‘mega church’ (Eliora). He denigrates smaller local churches and looks upon them with contempt, because they do not accept the ‘outpouring’ as genuine. He says they should “rejoice with those who rejoice”. I smile at this, because this exact same text was used during the course of the vile TB! As I said at that time, I will not rejoice when the situation is godless and satanic!

‘Taylor: “Churches would run us down and accuse of us of all kinds of nonsense as what we were seeing was exposing their lack. The Bible exhorts us to rejoice with those that rejoice, and as God was moving mightily we became the subject of complaints from leadership’s within other churches!“ ‘ (Eliora)

Where in this is Taylor’s desire for all local churches to enjoy the same ‘outpouring’? Why denigrate them instead? (The same happened to me when I refused to accept the TB locally or nationally). Not a good sign. Eliora discovered that Taylor’s church hosted an heretic speaker just a few weeks before the ‘outpouring’ began (the church has a habit of having heretical speakers):

“One instance of this “nonsense” may have been the fact that Taylor's friend, heretic and deceiver Tommy Tenney was guest speaker at Victory Church on the 10th of February 2013. Tommy Tenney is the author of the book The God Chasers which has been widely condemned as promoting the anti-Trinitarian heresy of Sabellianism.” (Eliora)

Doctrine Gets in the Way of Heresy

Typically of charismatics, who think little of doctrine, the life-blood of any true church, Taylor does not believe doctrine is important. He said something very strange and contradictory: “Once a large church has established a healthy congregation it has more pressing matters than to argue over doctrine with the next spiritual fad.” This is something uttered (with odd syntax) in pride!

It is also heresy, because no congregation becomes “healthy” unless it pays heed to proper doctrine! In his absurd statement he also admits to the nature of the ‘outpouring’, without realising he has said it... it is a “spiritual fad”! And, as Eliora reveals, the infamous, godless Todd Bentley visited Cwmbran in 2011. I have no doubt that the evil spirit of the man remained and is now present in the ‘outpouring’.

Eliora says the Victory website contains no scripture and keeps repeating ‘outpouring’. (However, I would expect Taylor to soon put this right for appearances’ sake, now he has read her opposition). Taylor refuses to answer any criticism, saying that it is best to keep quiet. This is bad advice and certainly unscriptural! Where is the sound answer to all who ask reasonable questions?

On 21st April, Taylor again gave a typically-charismatic (heavy shepherding) warning:

“I have been warned by the Lord; the Lord spoke to me very clearly...........this is a warning from the Lord. You need to be in every outpouring meeting because there could be just one meeting, one moment which could change your life forever and you could miss it..............”

As far as I am aware every member HAS to attend EVERY meeting in the week (totalling five days). I suggest this is essential so that Taylor can boast high attendee numbers, otherwise his claims will be like a damp squib.

Arminianism Popping Up... Again

This, too, is typically-charismatic posturing and marketing! It is also Arminian in concept – another underlying heresy found in all of charismaticism. In this way Taylor is pressuring the congregation to stay; it also contains a warning to listen to him (because only he has the correct divine inspiration) and to obey, because otherwise they disobey the Lord. Uh-oh! I have only just begun this article and already it sounds to me like a repeat of the 1990s movement of Satan. Members ‘have’ to attend all the meetings during the week, with a hidden ‘or else’. For more on what Eliora has discovered go to her website and see her follow-up articles.

In another article, Eliora says Taylor uses the New Living Translation. Hm. This is such a bad version of the Bible, that its use is significant. From its pages Taylor appears to call unbelievers ‘clean’, using emotive language to bring listeners to his side! He also warns people not to call people immoral, because Jesus loves them. That is, we must not judge! How many times have I come across this fallacy in charismatic (and reformed) teaching? Sadly, all the time. We are commanded by God to judge others! (See my articles on the subject). Not to judge is the same as accepting sin without question! To add to his errors, Taylor then says that God accepts the ‘good works’ of unbelievers, as well as hinting that Peter had a demonic spirit of religion. (These are observations of his sermon, 29th May, on Acts 10).

Taylor specifically said that unbelievers can receive the Holy Spirit before they are saved. Again, I found this a mainstay in the 1990s movement. The Holy Spirit certainly has to regenerate a person before he can be saved, but he does not, in that interim time, have the Spirit within.

To support this claim, he points to typical charismatic trickery – people falling down and do not know what is going on. If people are not aware of what they are doing, and why, then they cannot attribute it to God, but to Satan, or to their own minds, or to the psychological persuasion of leaders.

Taylor claims that this is more about people being saved than about ‘miracles’. I do not believe it – why else do people travel from around the globe to see what is going on? They do it because they want to ‘get it’ (another typically-charismatic behaviour found in the TB. Note how, throughout this paper, I refer to what is ‘typical’ – this is because I have quickly ascertained the satanic foundation for this ‘outpouring’).

When the TB was rife thousands of pastors travelled the globe to wherever ‘it’ was manifested; they were physically touched by those who already had ‘it’, and then went home to touch others, so they could get ‘it’, too. (By ‘it’ they meant the Holy Spirit, Who they constantly referred to in impersonal terms).

Taylor hates anyone to be critical of all this, but they should be! We are seeing yet another wave of TB-style heresy and demonic behaviour. For me, this is just ‘more of the same’; I saw it in great detail in the 1990s and I see it again in Cwmbran. Another sign of his error is the typically-charismatic heresy of “putting theology to one side”. In the 1990s there was a widespread call to do this, because ‘we are now in post-biblical days’, when anything extra-biblical was acceptable. We were warned not to think but just to accept! How typically-charismatic is that, eh? And how Satanic? ALL true pastors and Bible teachers are ‘theologians’ to some degree. They cannot help it, because theology is the thinking process arising from scripture! To ignore it is to open up to evil forces and great error.

Children are susceptible to this kind of shepherding nonsense. Indeed, about 50 of the children at Victory began shaking and falling down in the “presence of Jesus”. I will say it now – that was not Jesus, but Satan! Read my 1990s articles on this activity. Frankly, Taylor can call me whatever he likes – he is totally wrong to allow children to be submitted to this kind of hair-brained, demonic experience. What abuse! What spiritual damage he creates! Indeed, it was this abuse of children that first led me to speak publicly against the TB. What a furore it raised!

Apart from someone preaching anti-Trinitarianism at Victory, the same church has hosted John Glass, a ‘big-name’ of Elim (http://eliora.hubpages.com/hub/WELSH-OUTPOURING-DECEPTION-AT-CWMBRAN-RICHARD-TAYLOR), who taught New Age visualisation techniques and supports the awful Todd Bentley. Visualisation is also used by spiritualists, by the way! Elim was quick to support the TB, too. Other heretics have appeared at Victory, ‘giving’ the ‘fire’ of God (that is, the flames of hell, from Satan) to the congregation. Eliora noted that Taylor becomes very aggressive towards those who are critical of any of these activities.

We must also take note of the staged environment in Victory – pillars with a nautical star between – this is Babylonian and occult; an image used for the sun-god and an almost perfect representation of the ‘star of Ishtar’. Why else choose such an odd symbol?

From a Friendly Charismatic...

The opposite of Eliora’s conservative preference for truth and scripture can be found plenteously in fellow charismatic writers, such as Peter Ould. And what can we expect from a “New Calvinist (see my article on this), reformed, charismatic, post-gay”? He has ‘worshipped’ in Vineyard and New Frontiers churches and is now an Anglican (no surprise there). With that recipe for error and failure, we cannot take his approval of Victory church without comment.

In his report on a meeting he attended at Cwmbran (http://www.peter-ould.net/2013/06/20/welsh-outpouring/), he said he entered the meeting with caution. Of the meeting, he said it was nothing extraordinary and that “The service ran pretty much like you would expect a charismatic / pentecostal encounter to.” Because of this we cannot really accept his words at face value.

For example, he said “There was around 30 minutes of worship to begin with which was very Christ and cross centered. This makes a refreshing change to the very ego-centric stuff you often see on the Christian TV channels and this theme was permeated through the whole evening. We sang of Christ, his atoning work on the cross and his victorious resurrection, and we proclaimed him to be God. This was followed by one of the pastors sharing some of the testimonies of God’s work over the past weeks. What was striking was that as much as the physical healings were reported, we also had the accounts of those who had come in repentance to Christ, those whose lives had been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit.”

Nothing wrong with that, right? No! Anyone familiar with charismatic-speke knows how to be very wary of this kind of talk. Why? Because the meanings they give to words are usually very different from the meanings given by scripture. Anyone can ‘sing of Christ’, and what is really meant by ‘cross-centred’? Every word has to be analysed and checked! And, what does he mean by lives ‘transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit’? Nothing can be taken for granted in charismaticism. What Ould reported sounds biblical – but there is insufficient evidence to confirm that... and. as I have said, he is himself charismatic and ‘New Calvinist’, which puts him into the same viper’s nest as Victory church, casting doubt on anything he says!

On the other hand, what he said may be genuine and appropriate. But, his background does not give us trust in what he said. Ould also reports that the preacher spoke of “repentance in Christ”, etc. Forgive my caution again, but I have read and heard this kind of thing coming from TB-style people, and what they mean by it is drastically different from what scripture means by it. Without deeper definitions, in fact, Ould’s report is meaningless.

We also have another of my suspicions – that Satan is evolving charismaticism so that he ‘fills the gaps’ previously treated with caution by genuine believers. Thus, he will use similar words and concepts, to allay the fears of critics, those who have thus far withstood charismaticism. DO NOT BE FOOLED! Check, check, and check again! Even the man who got out of his wheelchair and started the whole ‘movement’ in April... I heard his testimony and could not ascertain exactly what he suffered from before. Was it a physical malady, or psychosomatic? And, forgive the cynicism, but did he secretly get out of his wheelchair at home before his claimed healing? And even if he WAS healed, was it from God or from Satan, for Satan can mimic healing... though it does not last. There are just too many questions!

Ould speaks of the ‘reformed alcoholics and drug addicts’ attending the church, but, I am not impressed at this stage (see some of my assessments of this in my 1990s articles). Elim and other charismatic churches are crammed to the rafters with these folks. But, what they do not tell us is how long they stay and how long they stay off the bottle and drugs! The evidence appears to be that they do not last long, maybe a few years, before they become disinterested in a life of hyped-emotion. Which suggests a strong psychological element in their ‘healing’ and supposed ‘belief’.

What I am warning is that I have seen it all before, and heard it all before. We must be ultra-cautious, because of what the church is – Victory church is charismatic and belongs to doubtful, sinful organisations. Its senior pastor says and does things that are dubious. At the moment, then, it is all too reminiscent of the older TB activity, but, thus far, watered-down. And, of course, fake ‘tongues’ are a feature.

The usual charismatic terms and words continue to come forth. Such as “Do not constrain God”! This is charismatic-speke for “Do not criticise and just let everything happen without biblical comment”. This is a very dangerous attitude to take and I saw many evils perpetrated by charismatic preachers during the TB, who did not ‘think’. They were horrendous! And yet they dared to curse critics and threaten them with all manner of wicked sins. Beware! For myself, I will stay away from this kind of thing, because it is too much like what it claims not to be!!

Sadly, even a reformed observer who attended a service spoke of Victory’s “quite orthodox charismatic style meeting”. Eh? Does he mean ‘orthodox charismatic’ or ‘orthodox (and) charismatic’? To speak of ‘orthodox’ and ‘charismatic’ in the same breathe is, well, an oxymoron! Charismaticism is outside the pale and cannot be counted as orthodox in the biblical sense! (http://churchgrowthmodelling.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/contagion-in-cwmbran-new-wales.html). It is a grim fact that before the TB, charismaticism was on the outer fringes, known as heretical and ‘looney’. Now, that very same movement is mainstream and fills almost every church. This is probably why it is now called ‘orthodox’. But, you can get ‘orthodox’ heresy as well as ‘orthodox orthodoxy’!

Do not get me wrong. I believe God can change people, and some of these will be from previously ‘hard’ backgrounds and tough lives. I believe God performs miracles and that He intervenes in this world. I also believe that God can call a man or woman to Himself despite heretical preaching and activity. But, what I know of charismaticism causes me to refuse and refute charismatic offerings. Why should God work through heresy? I have already noted the heretical organisations Victory is linked with. It is also linked to the Mars Hill idea of church growth, so there can be no easy acceptance from me!

A Barrier

Taylor himself erected a barrier, by saying doctrine is not important. And, because of its charismatic affiliation and presentation, Victory does not give me an ounce of confidence in the reality of a genuine revival or movement of God. Once again I am reminded of the vile TB and the way it quickly showed its demonic teeth. If I am wrong about it, well, it will be my task to repent. But, thus far, I am not convinced. I will, in fact, put my neck on the block and say that we should observe Victory church in a few years’ time. I guarantee it will be empty or just ‘normal’ charismatic, with no power of any kind, if it does not repent and cut-off from its heretical affiliations.

The reporter (John Hayward) said that at the meeting he attended, he “felt nothing”. This is what happened to me at a campaign meeting held by a famed Pentecostal preacher (Cerullo) many years ago, though everyone else was ecstatic. Like John Hayward, I did not “feel God’s presence”. Far from it. Hayward spoke of a “wind of change” and referred to Victory as part of it. This is interesting because I knew of such a change of wind years ago, but in a negative sense, believing it to be a savage wind from Satan. It has to be from Satan, because scripture speaks of a massive apostasy in the last days, not a great revival! And it is this apostasy I see today in the church scene worldwide.

Scripture teaches that towards the end of time Satan would whip people up into a frenzy of falsity, calling it good. This is what I believe charismaticism to be. Thus, I, too, believe we will see many more ‘outpourings’... but not from God. They will come from Satan, for this is how history is described in the near future: no massive revivals, but the exact opposite - apostasy. My experiences during the vile TB were of being bitten hard by Satan’s hounds, who wanted to finish me off. I have witnessed many similar ‘outpourings’, in Pensacola, and other places too numerous to mention. Now we have Cwmbran! What makes it different? Nothing I can see. It is the ‘same old, same old’. Not a breath of fresh air, but a waft of demonic stink.

Friends, you might wonder how I can be so fixed about this, especially as I have not attended a meeting. I do not need to. I observed the TB-style meetings, which were foul! I do not need to commit murder to know it is vile! My discernment is as keen as ever it was during the ravaging of the world's churches in the 1990s.

Expect Satanic Happenings, and You’ll Get Them!

We should note what happened before the TB struck. Pentecostal leaders (how I dislike that term – ‘leaders’) admitted that their charismatic movement was all but dead. They began to plead for an exciting new path. They kept on pleading... and Satan heard it; it was he who responded, giving them exactly what they wanted.

So, when another charismatic ‘leader’ said of Victory church, “For the last month, this church has been holding meetings 5 nights a week as a response to what God has been doing in their midst. These were not started as part of a strategic plan or strategy, but rather as result of what God has been doing.” I stand back and do not believe it. God can do anything He wishes. In no way do I put Him ‘in a box’. But, I am expected to believe that a local church that sides with heresy and heretics, and is in a godless movement, is being used by God to increase the same godlessness. I do not believe it, because if I believed in the Victory claim, I may as well just give up discernment and abide by any old claim made by any old heresy!

Is this charismatic leader (Graham Pyman) telling us that what he saw was ‘of God’? Then I must not follow his words. In the TB movement, too, everything was attributed to ‘God’ and the ‘Holy Spirit’ (usually referred to as ‘it’), even though almost everything it poured out was foul. Pyman first saw stories of Victory on a blog run by fellow charismatic, Andy Robinson. Sadly, his reaction to it was also typically-charismatic. He said he looked at the website and the books recommended by Taylor. His response tells us his later report would be worthless: “It seemed that pastor Richard loved the types of books I like and linked to similar websites as I frequent too. I suppose all of this gave me a security that this was genuine and that the church and its leadership were trustworthy, godly men.” This was an heretical fellow visiting an heretical fellow! He had ‘security’ because Taylor was the same type as himself. Thus, he visited the church already predisposed towards acceptance, based on their co-equal reliance on heresy.

As with so many charismatic dealings, Robinson pondered on Cwmbran’s experience and he began to get excited about his pending visit; he already anticipated wondrous results! His anticipation led the way, rather than actuality. As I read his blog my mind was prevented from accepting anything as genuine, because of his own charismaticism and his charismatic-style anticipation. Is this my error? No, I do not think so. If I know, say, Hitler kills Jews, and I am a Jew, would I savour meeting him or thinking well of his aims for Jews? Hardly!

Robinson, for example, equates human ‘expectancy’ of the crowd with godly ‘faith’. This is folly. As was his surmise that the “presence of God was very evident”. He is really saying that God is present in an heretical situation where a congregation is being misled about doctrine, His own word! Robinson said the team points everyone to Jesus. Sounds good, until we examine what charismatics mean by that term. Theirs is a Jesus of easy-love, Who allows sin in order to love people.

Let us get back to the visit to Victory by Graham Pyman. Like so many charismatics, Pyman is a thoroughly nice fellow, as an human being. But, God does not look upon our niceness. He looks into our hearts and minds. It is these that determine God’s presence or not.

Pyman says Victory does not call what is happening a ‘revival’, but he obviously hopes it will turn into one. Many claim ‘revival’ when there is nothing of the sort. And, in my experience, charismatic activities are definitely nothing of the sort. Pyman, too, speaks of a tangible anticipation... always a great way to begin a meeting, because, even if the meeting is a dud, expectations will carry a congregation through on a wave! It is simple conditioning. If they spoke of awe and silent dread, because God is there, I might listen more closely.

Pyman said Taylor gave a short, powerful sermon, the Gospel. But, this was presented in Arminianistic style, for he then called people forward to make a ‘decision’. Like his friend, Robinson, Pyman uses the same language, but without defining what he means by such things as “hunger for God”, “love and faith for Jesus”, and so on. As I keep repeating, the way charismatics think of them is very different from the biblical concept. And, there is no need to call ones’ self ‘charismatic’ anyway, for all labels are human devices, a step away from what Christ intended for His Church.

Pyman says Victory was already “serving their community” before the ‘outpouring’. This is another point of discomfort, for it smacks of ‘community church’ where the church is led not by Christ but by a desire to serve the unsaved. We are to preach the Gospel to them, not ‘serve’ them. Can you see the difference? The local church is NOT about serving the unsaved community, but about individual saved people meeting together. As individuals they might witness to the unsaved (as and when led by God, but not guaranteed), and a preacher might speak to them, but it is not our task to give ourselves to the unsaved on a routine basis, as a church, in ‘community service’. Do you see what I mean? Victory appears to follow the insidiously-growing ‘seeker’ model. It is a model now adopted by the recently apostate WEST seminary, copying the USA’s Mars Hill and Saddleback churches.

Conclusions

I can only conclude from what I have read, but this is legitimate. The church and pastors are charismatic, and this alone is a black mark. Though watered-down, the activity at Victory church is merely the Toronto Blessing. I say this because it has all the hall-marks of charismatic falsity.

I am not convinced at all by use of similar words about God, Jesus, worship, etc., Because I know how they are used in charismaticism in general, and in the Toronto Blessing-style movement of the past and present. Victory has affiliations with godless people and organisations, and is Arminian in its ’gospel’ – many reformed folks will disagree with my assertion that Arminian equals a fake Gospel, but, I am not in the business of making people equal when they are not. God tells us what the Gospel is and how it is to be presented, not men. Therefore, if I step on people’s toes, I do it because God demands it.

Is the ‘Welsh Outpouring’ genuine? Yes, it is, but it is not of God. I can say this because of reasons already given above. God saved people who were immersed in Roman Catholicism, and out of it came the Reformation. That is true, but the people thus saved were saved out of Catholicism – they were not driven back into it. Instead, they were Protestants against Rome.

In this case we have a people driven deeper into charismaticism, and that I cannot accept! Charismaticism is external to the true Church, so why should I say its current movements are godly? And why should God save and lead a people whose aim is not to come away from error, but to be steeped further in it?

As I said with the TB, if I am wrong, then the Lord will show me and I will repent and admit to my error. But, the TB proved itself to be a fiery dart from Satan, and I did not need to repent. Nor do I think it will happen in this case. My aim is severe and strict – to only see what I see and to discern as I am given power to do so, in the Lord. The emotions and glowing words from fellow charismatics do not move me one inch. It is essential for any man called by God to follow this kind of path, or he will be sucked into the very falsity he is examining. The prime theology school of Wales has already fallen in this way, and I do not wish to be another victim!

The only thing that is genuine about the ‘outpouring’ is its adherence to charismatic ideology. Though prevalent throughout the world it is still fake and still not of God. Those members who attend its meetings must already be exhausted, but, like faithful Mormons and JWs they soldier on in the hope they are right. But, to soldier on they must obey their pastor who says they MUST attend every meeting, or else they disobey God.

As I have already said, I have seen it all before, in the foul TB movement, which is still crushing the churches with its fakery, taking on many different disguises as it evolves. How can Victory church, which has allowed the likes of Todd Bentley to affect it, possibly be obedient to the Lord?

In other words, this outpouring seems to me to be just another piece of the jigsaw puzzle called charismaticism; a movement of Satan used to deceive. If its people came away from charismaticism and used words as God uses them, I would be far more impressed!

© July 2013

Published on www.christiandoctrine.com

Bible Theology Ministries - PO Box 415, Swansea, SA5 8YH
Wales
United Kingdom

Please 'Make a Donation' to support the work of Bible Theology Ministries